The Board of County Commissioners of Brevard County, Florida, met in workshop session on January 3, 1995, at 2:04 p.m. in the Multipurpose Room, Building C, 2725 St. Johns Street, Melbourne, Florida. Present were: Chairman Nancy Higgs, Commissioners Truman Scarborough, Randy O'Brien, Mark Cook, and Scott Ellis, County Manager Tom Jenkins, and County Attorney Scott Knox.

OPEN BOARD DISCUSSION

Chairman Higgs advised there is no agenda; the Board requested the County Attorney and County Manager discuss what it means in terms of moving into the Charter; she and the other Commissioners have a memorandum on the Charter; and requested Mr. Jenkins address that issue. She stated when the Board completes the discussion on the Charter, Commissioners can suggest other issues, and the Board can deal with them.

Commissioner Ellis inquired if the Board will be discussing the storm today; with Chairman Higgs responding no, there is a scheduled workshop on the storm on January 18 or 20, 1995. County Manager Tom Jenkins advised there is a workshop on the storm and economic development scheduled for January 20, 1995.

County Attorney Scott Knox stated the Charter does not do much to change the short term operation of County government; it was designed that way; and that is the way it is. He stated there are several long term items affected such as how the County can finance things, initiative recall, limits on bonds, and things like that; but generally it is well laid out and speaks for itself. He stated the only gray area relates to the special act issues; currently as a Charter County, Brevard County has the authority to appeal or amend those Special Acts that were in effect on November 5, 1968, as long as they pertain solely to the unincorporated area; and there is also a provision in the Constitution which says that a Charter County's authority is home ruled to the extent it is not inconsistent with General Law, or Special Laws approved by the electors. He stated the term "Special Law approved by the electors" is an interesting term; it would seem on the face of it that there could not be a special law in effect in Brevard County from this point forward unless electors approve it; however the Attorney General has said that is not what it means. He stated the Attorney General advises it means that if you create your Charter by Special Act, that was the Special Law that you can be consistent with; other wise a County has the authority to impose Special Laws in Brevard County like any other county. He advised that issue has not been resolved yet; the courts never addressed the issue; plain reading of the Constitution says there has to be voter approval of special acts in the county; but that is apparently not the way the Attorney General reads it. He noted that is a major gray area in terms of the Charter; but the Charter is pretty clear in what it states and in terms of what it does. Commissioner Ellis inquired if when Mr. Knox says special act, he is referring to an act of the Legislature; with Mr. Knox responding yes. Commissioner Ellis inquired if a literal interpretation would be any special act of the Legislature pertaining to Brevard County has to be approved in Brevard County by referendum; with Mr. Knox responding yes, if you read it literally. Commissioner Ellis inquired if that is since November, 1968 or is it now; with Mr. Knox responding the way he looks at it is any special act that is now applied and is in effect after November 5, 1968 is still within the framework of the Legislature's jurisdiction; but the way he reads the Constitution is in order to make it effective in Brevard County, the County has to approve any amendments of such law.

Chairman Higgs inquired what is out there; with Mr. Knox responding Chapter 201 of the code. Commissioner Cook stated any special act prior to 1968, the County could change. Chairman Higgs inquired if there are any out there that are onerous; with Mr. Knox responding there are eight pages of special acts. Mr. Jenkins inquired how many are before 1968; with Mr. Knox responding two-thirds of them are before 1968 and would affect just the unincorporated area; and an inventory should be taken to see what we have. Chairman Higgs inquired if those are open to amendment; with Mr. Knox responding yes. Mr. Jenkins advised they could be amended by ordinance. Chairman Higgs inquired if that is by ordinance, not referendum; with Mr. Knox responding yes, but it could be by referendum if the Board chose, or if it was initiated by the people.

Commissioner Ellis inquired if it can be amended, can it be abolished; with Mr. Knox responding yes. Commissioner Ellis inquired how about Special Taxing Districts. Mr. Knox responded in 1968 and before, it is the same thing; but it is only the unincorporated area that you can do something with it. He advised if it was a multiple jurisdiction of that special legislation which imposes a tax on the cities and the counties, the County could not do anything unless the Legislature does it. He noted the issue is whether or not the voters have approved. Commissioner Ellis inquired if TICO, the Sebastian Inlet Commission, Melbourne-Tillman Water Control District and all of those would have to go the Legislature; with Mr. Knox responding yes.

Mr. Jenkins noted Commissioner Ellis asked a question about referendum, and he did not understand it. Mr. Knox stated it was whether a special law enacted by the Legislature would have to be approved by the voters of the County before it went into effect. Mr. Jenkins inquired if that is today, and is the answer yes; with Mr. Knox responding it is now; and the answer is unclear. Mr. Knox advised the Constitution seems to say you have to do it that way; but the Attorney General says that is not what it means. Mr. Jenkins inquired if the Legislature attempted to pass a special act today, would it probably have to go to referendum; with Mr. Knox responding to be safe, they would make it contingent upon referendum. Mr. Jenkins noted the likelihood of them doing that now is nil; and that is one reason counties are encouraged to go Charter because the Legislature as a body does not like special acts any more.

Commissioner Ellis inquired if a special act is a local bill; with Mr. Jenkins responding yes, and advised the Legislature is trying to get away from local bills to the extent it can. Mr. Jenkins stated he thought the Charter said the Board could adopt County Ordinances as long as they are not in conflict with a municipal ordinance, and if they are in conflict with the municipal ordinance, then the municipal ordinance takes precedence. He stated the Board could pass a Countywide ordinance which would be enforceable in both cities and the County, unless the cities specifically are in conflict with it; and then the conflict goes in favor of the city. Commissioner Ellis inquired what if the cities specifically opt out; with Mr. Knox responding the provision of the Charter does not change anything the County had formerly as a non-charter county; that is also a constitutional provision; and what it says about opting out is if you have an ordinance which is countywide in effect, the municipality has to adopt ordinance on the same subject to be in conflict or opt out. He stated if the municipality just adopts an ordinance saying it opts out and does not want to participate in the ordinance, it does not follow. Commissioner Ellis inquired what if the municipality adopted an ordinance on the same subject which does nothing; with Mr. Knox responding then it would be in conflict with the County's Ordinance. Mr. Jenkins advised if the municipality's ordinance is less stringent than the County's, the less stringent would apply. Chairman Higgs advised whatever the municipality says would apply. Mr. Knox stated whatever the cities say in conflict with the County is in effect in the cities. Chairman Higgs inquired if there is nothing on the subject, the County's goes; with Mr. Knox responding that is right; if it is done Countywide; but it does not have to be done Countywide. Chairman Higgs stated it could be divided into unincorporated and incorporated; and inquired if that is the same as now; with Mr. Knox responding affirmatively. Chairman Higgs inquired about the Stormwater Ordinance; with Commissioner Ellis noting the cities do not all have to implement that. Mr. Knox advised that is done under the authority of the General Law which has some impact on how it is done, but in terms of counties with home rule ordinance authority, the County has the choice of doing it Countywide or just in the unincorporated area. Mr. Jenkins stated animal control would be an example; the Board can have a Countywide Animal Control Ordinance, and unless the municipalities have some different, it would apply. Mr. Knox stated another example would be the proposed bingo ordinance which was done originally on a Countywide basis; if it was in effect Countywide, it would be in effect in all cities and in the County unless the city adopted an ordinance that conflicted with it.

Chairman Higgs stated the Charter talks about interference as a punishable crime; and inquired what that means. Mr. Knox responded interference is a question which is up to debate; it says you cannot give direction to department employees, although you can seek information from them to get insight as to what is going on; but a Commissioner cannot say go out and fix this pothole. Commissioner Cook stated that is probably in the Administrative Code now. Mr. Knox stated it is a policy which has been combined as part of law for the County, so it is not longer something the Board can change at will. Mr. Jenkins stated one of the areas that seems to have the biggest conflict would be in capital projects and defining what capital projects are going to be done, how much will be spent, what the cost will be and so on; if it is a Countywide capital project such as a courthouse, those things have historically been done by the full Board; but if it is a park, road, library or those kinds of things, there has been a significant amount of Commissioner participation in the project. He stated a year or two ago, staff came to the board with a policy which the Board approved providing that all road projects would come to the full Board, that the scope of the project and budget would be approved by the full Board, and that it would not be changed without the approval of the full Board; and that was different than the way it had been historically. He stated the other complicating factor on this is the amount of community input that goes into making some of these decisions; everyone wants that community input because if projects are going to be done, the Board wants to know what the community is thinking; but the question is subsequently who is responsible and accountable for those projects. He stated there was a heated debate as to why there was not enough money to build all the roads; County staff did not have control of those projects; they were controlled by individual Districts; and that is the way it has always been done. He stated the library is just another example; Commissioner Ellis has taken exception to some of the decisions that were made on the Cocoa Beach Library; he did not support the Brassy's location; and while he is not singling out a project or Commissioners, he would like to get the philosophical issue on the table. He stated the City of Cocoa Beach strongly pushed the Brassy's location; the District Commissioner strongly pushed that location; the Library Advisory Board pushed that location; and inquired if two years from now when there is a new County Commissioner and there is no history involved, will the County Manager or the Library Director be held accountable for the location of that library. He stated that is a difficult issue; and if the Board can wrestle with that and come to some conclusions, it would be in everybody's best interests in terms of the role involved of staff, the community, the individual Commissioners and the Board as a whole.

Commissioner Ellis stated the main thing is the vote is at the Board level so everyone is aware of it; and even if it is a stoplight, it ends up at the Board level. He stated his problem has been the Commissioner do not have all the information; the Board did not have full information on the Brassy's issue; a political decision was made, and then the facts fit the political decision; and the final site did not even match the original criteria for site selection. Chairman Higgs inquired how would Commissioner Ellis recommend doing it differently. Commissioner Ellis responded no matter what the political decision may be, the Board should have all the facts leading to a logical decision; when the Board was looking at the Brassy's site, it should have been told that the site did not meet the site selection criteria originally established by the Board; and then the Board could make the decision. Mr. Jenkins inquired if there were a project in a Commissioner's District that the Commissioner was championing, how well would it sit if staff came up with information which blew the project away. Commissioner Ellis stated that is okay; he is not worried about that; each Commissioner is a Commissioner of five Districts; and if there is a problem in a District that takes money away, it is not only from that District but from the other four.

Commissioner Cook stated the point is that all five Commissioners have adequate information; and if a Commissioner in a certain District is championing a thing, if they are a good enough salesman to sell it, and the facts support the sale, that is the key.

Chairman Higgs stated she agrees totally; and inquired does the staff also make a recommendation. Commissioner Ellis stated he does not mind staff's recommendations; he expects recommendations; but he does want all the information to be presented.

Commissioner Cook stated he is not worried about a recommendation; if he has all the facts, he will make the decision; and it puts staff in an uncomfortable position recommending one subject or another.

Chairman Higgs stated it is important for staff to make a recommendation because staff may be the only ones that have the perspective that something is a stupid thing to do. Commissioner Cook stated staff recommendations are a fairly new thing; but he has no problem with it.

Commissioner Ellis stated the same thing is coming on the Titusville Courthouse that came up on Brassy's; and the Board is going to find problems with knocking out the side of the Courthouse and selling the modular buildings.

Commissioner Cook stated there is a whole wing going in, so that is something the Board needs to discuss.

Commissioner Scarborough stated there is one thing the County Manager started doing that is important; each thing that is put on the agenda includes all the options, an analysis of the options, and a recommendation; and it allows the Board to see the weaknesses and strengths of each of the options. He stated in life there are not one or two options generally; the problem is the Board does not consider all the options; it does not consider all the risk; and the more options and analysis the Board is given, the more it will have something to take and sink its teeth into. He stated Commissioner Ellis has put some time in on the Titusville Courthouse; he is up there; the question is how well are the Commissioners informed; and if they do not have all the pros and cons analyzed, they are walking into a yes or no environment which really does not give them latitude to play their role as Commissioner. Commissioner Cook stated he agrees totally.

Mr. Jenkins stated what is also important is that the rules are publicly stated, so staff knows the environment the Board wants them to operate in; and that is one of the reasons it is helpful to discuss this subject. He stated in most Charter governments, the County Manager or Administrator does make recommendations; that is the way it is done; and it puts the Manager on the hot seat; but they do make recommendations. He stated he has been here for eight years; and he cannot say that he has always felt comfortable presenting information that might be in conflict with a Commissioner's position on an issue.

Chairman Higgs stated staff has to be empowered to do that, and the Board should expect staff's professional judgment on every issue.

Mr. Jenkins stated there are a number of citizen advisory boards such as the Library Board; they come forward with recommendations; staff has never gotten in the middle of a citizens advisory board because they are appointed by the Commission; and staff has never taken exception to it. Chairman Higgs stated she disagrees, if it is in conflict. Commissioner Ellis stated the Board had this argument, but an advisory board is advisory, not the final word. Chairman Higgs stated if the Board really wants input to make a rationale decision, then the citizens should make their input; and staff is expected to provide input also. Commissioner Cook stated what Mr. Jenkins is saying is staff has never been in conflict with an advisory board. Mr. Jenkins stated it may be different in the LPA arena, but if the Board gets a recommendation from an advisory board, staff has never given a recommendation which could possibly in conflict with the advisory board. Commissioner Ellis inquired why not; with Commissioner O'Brien responding the Board is not encouraging staff to speak up. Commissioner O'Brien stated the employees are paid to think; and the Board should let them think. He stated the Board should allow staff to speak up and have some discourse, especially if they have a stance on which they feel strongly. He stated the Board should let staff be creative; the Board has held a lid on some very creative people for years; and that should have never been done. Commissioner Ellis stated if a Commissioner has a disagreement with staff position, the thing to do is to schedule it for an agenda item for the Board, so the Board can give direction. Chairman Higgs stated it is going to be a Board decision anyway. Commissioner Ellis stated a lot of things that happen are not really Board decisions. Commissioner Cook stated he agrees totally; and the Board should have the staff recommendation and the advisory board recommendation. He stated some times a political decision is made and the facts are tailored to fit; the Board needs to get away from that; and as County Manager, Mr. Jenkins can control that. Chairman Higgs stated the Board expects the information, whether it likes it or not, to be presented. Commissioner O'Brien stated the Board wants to hear it all.

Commissioner Scarborough stated it is important to have different divisions of staff holding different opinions; and there is nothing wrong with getting contradictory opinions from the County Manager. He stated everybody understands that goes on; and if it is locked out, the Board has to come to a staff decision and will not receive all the input. He stated the Board wants to have all the options and risks available; and if someone asks why something was done, the Board can say it looked at the risks and judged them. He stated the Board will create a record; and it can say it knew all it needed to know and chose, and would make the same decision again with the same information. Commissioner Cook stated staff opinion is not necessarily the Commissioners' opinion once they get all the information. Commissioner Scarborough stated one department thinks one thing and another thinks something else for various reasons.

Commissioner O'Brien stated he has heard, although he has not seen it, that some Commissioners get one piece of information because that is what they want to hear, and another Commissioner might get another piece of information because that is what he wants to hear; and that should not be. He stated it should be everything there is so the five Commissioners can make a viable decision based on fixing what is wrong.

Commissioner Ellis stated at the end there will be some Commissioners who will still be mad; but as long as it gets to the whole Board, then they will know who to blame. Chairman Higgs noted it is the Board's blame. Commissioner Ellis stated he does not like to see people beat up on staff to do something for them. Commissioner Cook stated he hopes that does not happen; and he does not foresee that taking place at this point. Commissioner O'Brien noted under the Charter, you cannot do that anyhow. Commissioner Ellis stated you could not do it under the old rule really. Commissioner Cook stated there were administrative rules before that said you could not do it, but it happens. Commissioner O'Brien stated now the public is really watching; and that is why they passed the Charter.

Mr. Jenkins stated the Board's comments are helpful because staff is beginning to know what the rules of the playing field are. He stated another issue is the Charter says Brevard County will not do double taxation. Mr. Knox advised it is in Section 1.4.1 of the Charter. Mr. Jenkins stated it could go either way; the people in the unincorporated area could be paying for something that is being done in the cities or vice versa; in Florida, this issue came to a head about fifteen years ago when it went to court; there were negotiated settlements with almost every significant county; and every settlement was different. He stated without further research, there is a possibility there will be some double taxation issues in existence that need to be addressed in order to not be in conflict with the Charter. Commissioner Ellis inquired about the Constitutional Officers; with Mr. Jenkins responding it is a Countywide function. Commissioner Ellis noted that is not necessarily true; and he was thinking of the Sheriff where it is a split function. Mr. Jenkins stated that is one of the most difficult ones to resolve; the jails are a Countywide function; the bailiffs are a Countywide function; and there are some criminal investigative things that are done on a Countywide basis. He stated the one that created the most debate around the state is road patrols and how they are paid for; and it varies from jurisdiction to jurisdiction. He noted he doubts it has any legal significance, but there was a negotiated settlement in Broward County fifteen or twenty years ago where a Circuit Judge determined that because a green and white unit was traveling through cities, and many times the deputies, who lived in cities, took the cars home, that there was an inherent deterrent to crime by having the green and white in the city; but that issue differs from county to county. He stated Code Enforcement principally works in unincorporated Brevard County; Growth Management and Planning work primarily in the unincorporated area of Brevard; and the question is are we using General Fund tax Countywide to fund those programs.

Chairman Higgs inquired how can the Board get at those issues because they are important.

Commissioner Ellis stated the Sheriff in particular is the one the Board needs to try to find a way to separate out. Mr. Jenkins stated that is the toughest.

Chairman Higgs suggested going department by department to look at which issues are Countywide versus some that are just totally in the unincorporated area.

Commissioner Scarborough inquired are there people to do studies on this; with Mr. Jenkins responding yes. Commissioner Scarborough stated maybe the Board needs to get someone to come in because if it is done internally, he is afraid it will not have the same degree of credibility than if it was done externally. He stated there is a presumption that there will be a prejudice for the County operations.

Commissioner Cook inquired what is going to drive this issue. Commissioner Scarborough stated some of these will have to be challenged as a Board. Mr. Knox advised the issues were out there when Brevard was a non-charter county; this does not change anything; but that is a gray area; and some kind of analysis would be warranted, if the Board thinks that is a problem.

Mr. Jenkins stated he is not sure the settlement or plan the judge came up with fifteen or twenty years ago was necessarily the best settlement or really reflective; there is a consequence to this action though in that it could have a significant impact on the distribution of taxation; and somebody's taxation could go way up or way down. He noted it also may not change dramatically; and that will not be known until an analysis is done.

Commissioner Scarborough stated to answer Commissioner Cook's question, the Commissioners were elected by people inside and outside of municipalities; the people were told, in putting the Charter forward, that this is the way to play the rules, and some people may get hurt; and inquired if this is not really just putting everything on hold. Commissioner Cook stated he has no objection, but is not thrilled that there is going to be a $100,000 to $150,000 study. Commissioner Scarborough stated he does not know how much a study will cost.

Chairman Higgs stated what the County is going to provide in the unincorporated area versus what the municipalities are providing is an important issue for the long term development of the County. Commissioner O'Brien stated the cheap way out of it is to ask the municipalities to come back to the Board on whether they think they are being taxed twice. Commissioner Scarborough stated he is afraid of what the answer is going to be. Chairman Higgs stated she knows what the answer is going to be.

Commissioner Ellis stated he lives in a municipality; he pays for Melbourne Police Department; and he does not know where the money goes. Chairman Higgs stated he is paying for her share of the coverage; and that is not fair. Commissioner Ellis stated he knows you do not pay for Melbourne Police Department if you live in the unincorporated area; with Chairman Higgs agreeing. Commissioner Ellis stated this only flows one way. Chairman Higgs stated a memo came through that Commissioner Ellis was looking at the emergency services; that is the core of the issue; how the County provides services in a cost effective manner is really a time sensitive issue; and it is of major importance in terms of the long term planning for the County. Commissioner Cook suggested getting some estimates. Chairman Higgs stated she would really like to dig into it. Mr. Jenkins stated another good one is small parks in the unincorporated area that are being paid for in some cases by the General Fund, and in some cases, they are not because there are special taxing districts. Commissioner Scarborough advised the City of Titusville was finally incorporated into the same MSTU as the County. Mr. Jenkins stated that is the perfect system as it is all one. Commissioner Scarborough stated it is working evenly now; but before they did not have equity up there. Commissioner Ellis stated in Melbourne, a lot of his money goes to the City of Melbourne to pay for all the major services; and the City built its own $2 million auditorium. Mr. Jenkins noted Palm Bay also has a recreation department. Chairman Higgs stated there is the whole issue of equity in parks and whether it should be divided on population or tax base or whatever; and it gets into that whole issue. Commissioner Ellis stated you get into parks if you live in Palm Bay and go to the beach. Chairman Higgs stated those are County parks and part of the service the County provides.

Chairman Higgs stated she has a lady who is flooding and needs someone to come out; she does not want to be accused of directing someone to do something; and the Board needs to get some scope of how to handle that. Mr. Jenkins stated the most practical solution so that a Commissioner will never be accused by their opposition of violating the Charter would be to send a request for assistance with the problem, either by fax or e-mail to the County Manager; at the same time the Commissioner could seek help from Henry Mineboo, Chuck Nelson or whoever; and they would begin to deal with the problem. He stated by making the request for assistance to the County Manager, the Commissioners would find themselves in compliance with the Charter; copying the department director then allows that person to go ahead and begin whatever needs to be done; and time is not wasted.

Commissioner Scarborough stated he only sees a minute number of the calls that come in; generally his secretary answers the phone and refers it; and he could have her send the daily log of all the calls she receives, if Mr. Jenkins is interested. Mr. Jenkins stated that would be cumbersome. Commissioner Ellis stated Mr. Jenkins can work from memos. Commissioner Scarborough stated his office has a good relationship with Road and Bridge; a lot of people will call the Commission Office rather than calling Road and Bridge or Western Waste; half of the calls are nothing more than a telephone answering service; and his secretary is not in a position of authority to give instructions to someone. Mr. Jenkins stated she does not ask anyone to do anything; she just reports the complaint; and they handle it. Commissioner Cook inquired if they can get a response from somebody; with Mr. Jenkins responding Commissioner Scarborough raised a good point in that there is a need to draw the line. Mr. Jenkins stated if it is routine, like someone's garbage not getting picked up or a pothole in front of someone's house or a stray dog, those are the kinds of things where the Commissioner is not saying go pick up that dog or fix that pothole; the Commissioner is just taking the information and giving it to the appropriate agency to respond; the Commissioner is acting as a conduit; and that is one thing; but if there is something that is more significant that the Commissioner would like to be considered, that is how those could be addressed.

Commissioner Ellis stated that is something that would show up on the agenda anyway; with Mr. Jenkins advising it depends.

Chairman Higgs stated there is a street in South Brevard which has experienced significant flooding problems; it has been alleged that it is the consequence of the new development; but getting staff to work on those issues is interfering with their normal daily process. Commissioner Ellis stated he is not sure about that. Mr. Jenkins stated if it is cleaning out a culvert, that is like getting a bad dog; but if the Commissioner is saying there is a drainage problem, and requesting staff research it and come back with recommendations, then that may be going beyond just being a conduit of information; but it is whatever the Board is comfortable with.

Commissioner Scarborough stated the Board should not be in the pothole business.

Commissioner Cook stated he has no problem with the follow-up with the constituent; 90% is just routine stuff; and he would like a mechanism to get a response that something has happened or can happen. He stated a lot of times the constituent will keep calling if there is no action inquire what happens.

Commissioner O'Brien stated the objective of the Charter was to prevent a County Commissioner from walking into Gary Ridenour's office and saying, "Gary, we want to see this zoning . . . now do that." He stated that is what the Charter was all about; it is a simple matter to call Mr. Minneboo, for example, and advise someone has a problem and inquired if Road and Bridge can help. He stated the Commissioner is not giving an order; the Commissioner is asking a question.

Chairman Higgs stated with some people, if you ask them, they think that becomes a directive.

Commissioner O'Brien stated if something is not done, the Commissioner can send a fax to Mr. Jenkins advising he requested something from Mr. Minneboo, and it has not been done, so Mr. Jenkins can follow through and see what can be done.

Mr. Jenkins stated what might be a topical issue is what Commissioner O'Brien inherited the first day he came into office, which is the flooding problem on North Merritt Island and how it was and is being addressed. He stated that would be a good case study if the Board wanted to talk about it in terms of what was done.

Commissioner O'Brien stated he requested Mr. Minneboo get to the right people and meet with the North Merritt Island homeowners; and he was very amenable to that. He stated it worked out well in that it calmed the people's fears; but to date, there have been no solutions. He stated what spun out of that was there were five retired engineers living up there who formed their own committee, through his office, to find out not only where does all the water come from, but where does it really OPEN BOARD DISCUSSION (CONTINUED)

go, not where it is supposed to go, but where it really goes. He stated when that is found out, then he can come back and request this be handed down to the right person on staff, and have a plan for resolution. He noted he went out; there are no pumps out there; and there is a lot of water. Chairman Higgs inquired if that project will come back to the Board; with Commissioner O'Brien responding it will eventually, in about two years.

Commissioner Cook stated it is the old thing if a 900 pound gorilla asks you for your seat, then you give it to them; Commissioners have to be careful because of their position that the implication is not such that the Commissioners are directing staff to do things.

Commissioner O'Brien stated in the future he will send a fax to Mr. Jenkins requesting staff take care of things; and Mr. Jenkins can administer these things.

Commissioner Cook stated it holds the County Manager to a higher standard; and he would prefer to deal with only policy issues because the Board will make better policy decisions if it has more time to do that sort of thing. Commissioner O'Brien stated the Board is finally getting down to some of the points he has wanted to get to since he was sworn in. Commissioner Cook stated that is the important thing.

Chairman Higgs stated Commissioner O'Brien wants to solve water; she wants to solve water; she wants to have a transportation plan the County can pay for; she wants to see environmental protection; the newspaper talks about leadership and division and all this; and she wants the County to get there to; but she thinks the Board has to grab it now and go.

Commissioner O'Brien stated there are some solutions; and he is sure Mr. Jenkins would agree on this one. He stated if the Commissioners start directing staff and Mr. Jenkins to take care of some problems, it will give them back their jobs; the Commissioners should not be doing staff's job; and the Board should look at the big picture, such as transportation, environmental problems, crime and double taxation in the future. He stated that is what the Board should be looking at; what it is looking at is trash; and the Board is trashing itself with micromanagement.

Commissioner Ellis stated he disagrees with that because he has seen items put on the Consent Agenda which were half million dollars. Commissioner Cook stated appropriations should still come to the Board.

Chairman Higgs stated she is not ready to give up all the issues the Board looks at either; but somehow the Board has to get to the point of what is the big picture and those things the Board is going to take care of. Commissioner Ellis stated to do that the Board needs a workshop format. Chairman Higgs stated she has no problem with that. Commissioner Ellis stated he does not think any of the Commissioners do now, but in the past, that has been a problem; people did not want to have a workshop; and inquired if you do not have a workshop, how can you discuss policy in the Board meeting. He stated you have to have a workshop format to do policy; and it cannot be done at a Board meeting.

Commissioner Scarborough stated he sits through the agenda and listens; he responds to this and that and other Commissioners; maybe one or wo Commissioners will talk; but that is it; and it is their meeting not the Board's. He stated the Board is basically responding to things that are before it; people look at the agenda items as being the Board's; but it is not the Board's agenda; and what Commissioner Ellis is saying is there should be time for the Board to have an agenda, to talk about doing something positive.

Commissioner O'Brien stated the Board has to find a way to reduce a lot of that, and finding a method to do it.

Mr. Jenkins stated some of the things that come through in engineering and land development are things that are not legally mandated to come to the Board, but it has been a Board policy from previous Boards. He stated there are a lot of development regulations; items either meet those regulations or they do not; and a lot of those things could be, and are approved by engineers and other things in other jurisdictions; but they are brought to the Board for Board action. He stated those are the kinds of things the Board has to decide; it has to determine whether it wants to give up certain review functions that are not mandated by law, yet have historically come to the Board. Commissioner Cook stated if it has a financial impact, he would want the ability to review those things, but not routine engineering type things.

Commissioner Scarborough stated he is afraid of doing that because there was an engineering project recently that Rene Davis happened to catch that was a fouled up mess; Mr. Davis asked some questions and went out to look at everything first; and he wants the Board to see these things. Commissioner Ellis stated those are rarely pulled anyway; and generally it is spending items which are pulled.

Commissioner Scarborough stated Commissioner O'Brien was speaking to the thickness of the agenda and the amount of backup material.

Commissioner Cook stated some of the backup material could possibly be deleted; any Commissioner wanting additional material could get it; and it seems that some of the backup material is unnecessary.

Mr. Jenkins stated there has been a culture that anything you could possibly think of gets attached to the agenda; he sends it up en masse because that is the way it has always been; but it does not have to be that way. He stated that is the way it has always been done; but some of the items that are being attached may not be that significant.

Chairman Higgs stated what Commissioners Ellis and Scarborough are saying is that the Board has two functions; at a couple of its meetings, it has the function of reviewing the administrative matters that are put before it by the County Manager; but it has a separate function in setting the agenda and policy, and moving forward in the direction the Board thinks is positive for the community; and she hears everyone saying the Board needs to do that. She stated maybe the Board needs to say there are meetings that are driven by staff's agenda; and the Board responds to those; but then the Board drives the ship.

Commissioner Ellis stated it was his policy that the Board would set the agenda for the workshop. Chairman Higgs stated she has no problem with that; and it is a good idea. Commissioner Ellis stated what has crippled the Board for the last two years has been the inability to hold workshops. Chairman Higgs stated the Board has said it is not setting an agenda at these workshops, so it is talking about other workshops. Commissioner Ellis stated if the Board wanted to talk about the fire rescue issue, to discuss that there are a City and a County station sitting 1,000 feet apart, they might want to do a public safety workshop; and the Board would cover not only the Fire Department, but also Coastal and Harbor City Ambulance Services. He stated all this could be covered in a workshop format; what happened before was they were covered in agenda items, but people did not want to talk about it; people wanted to come in and vote; and they did not even want to get into the concept of why the County even has a County-owned service as well as Coastal and Harbor City. He stated the Board was never able to talk about the subjects and expand upon them.

Chairman Higgs stated there are two meetings scheduled each month and a zoning meeting; but those are staff driven agenda for the most part; and inquired if the Board can add to that. Mr. Jenkins stated a lot of them are just reacting to applications, etc. Chairman Higgs stated for the other workshops, the Board will develop the agendas and set the issues. Commissioner Scarborough stated there could be additional Commission driven agendas. Commissioner Ellis stated what happened in the past, since the Board did not have workshops, is that everything he wanted to talk about was put on the agenda; there was no way to do it but by agenda item because there were no workshops; and it was always at the very end of the agenda when people were tired and did not want to discuss it. He stated people did not want to have workshops; and it was very frustrating.

Chairman Higgs stated the Board has to agree what its priorities are in terms of the workshop because it cannot deal with everything; and it has to work through those issues.

Commissioner O'Brien stated the regular meetings are on Tuesdays; but the workshop schedule shows them at different times on different days; and he is not averse to saying there will be a workshop at 10:00 a.m. on every Tuesday that there is not a regular meeting. He stated then there would be a solid schedule; and all workshops would be moved to Tuesday at 10:00 a.m. Mr. Jenkins advised the Board will be having a night meeting on one of those Tuesdays. Commissioner O'Brien stated that is okay; the workshop can begin at 10:00 a.m.; and it might go all day anyhow. Commissioner Cook stated he likes the idea. Commissioner O'Brien stated it will let the Commissioners take a breather on Wednesday; on Thursday the Commissioners start looking at their agenda; on Friday, they do their homework; and then on Saturday and Sunday, they mull it over and have standing staff meetings.

Mr. Jenkins stated the workshops that are scheduled now are the Viera workshop on January 5, Solid Waste on January 11, joint meeting with Osceola County on January 18, and storm flooding and economic development on January 20, 1995. He stated in February, the Board has an affordable housing workshop on February 1, goals and objectives on February 8, jail and crime on February 15, an open workshop on February 16, and there is a pre-budget workshop on February 23, 1995. He noted those are in addition to the regular meetings, LDR's and the zoning meeting. He stated in March there is a public safety workshop on March 8, a parks workshop on March 14, and an open workshop on March 23, 1995. He advised there is a transportation workshop scheduled in April; and then the Board starts getting into the budget.

Commissioner Scarborough stated since these meetings have all been scheduled, Commissioner O'Brien's idea could be phased in during March and April because everybody's calendar is set.

Commissioner O'Brien inquired if the LDR's have to be a separate meeting; with Mr. Jenkins responding yes. Chairman Higgs stated they do not have to be on a separate night. Commissioner Ellis stated one of them will probably have to stand alone to meet the two-week interval, so, one could be combined with the zoning meeting. Chairman Higgs noted there could be a very long zoning agenda. Commissioner Cook stated that is the only thing he would be concerned about; and the new schedule will start in April.

Chairman Higgs inquired what are the workshops in the next two months; with Mr. Jenkins responding the Viera workshop, the solid waste workshop, the joint meeting with Osceola County, the flooding and economic development workshop, the affordable housing workshop, the goals workshop, the jail and crime workshop, and the pre-budget workshop.

Commissioner Ellis stated the top of the Merritt Island Complex is open now; and inquired where is the County going with its facilities. Mr. Jenkins noted the District 2 Office moved into that facility.

Chairman Higgs stated the jail and crime workshop is the last one in February; in the spring the MPO gets the first look at the 2020 Road Plan and the cost; that is going to be significant; and if the Board does not take that information and drive the ship in terms of transportation infrastructure and planning for the next 20 years, it is negligent. Mr. Jenkins noted the Board has a transportation workshop on April 12, 1995; and inquired if that is too soon. Chairman Higgs stated her understanding is the dollars will not be attached to the 2020 Plan by then; she is not sure the Board should not wait for that; the Board needs to start to look at what it is going to cost in the next twenty years before the budget; and she wants the Board to really look at where it is going to be in the year 2020, the road plan, and the associated costs.

Commissioner Scarborough inquired if the Board wants to talk about the gas tax again; with Commissioner Ellis advising he would at least like to talk about the ninth cent. Commissioner Scarborough stated there was some real opposition to the gas tax, but it is an equitable tax in that it taxes those who use the roads and who visit the area; and it is a funding mechanism the Board can tap into. Commissioner Ellis stated this was the argument last time, and the gas tax sort of fell apart; and suggested the Board have a dedicated set of projects it wants to do rather than just dumping it in the pot. Commissioner Cook stated the gas tax may seem equitable but it is also regressive. Commissioner Scarborough stated when you go to ad valorem, you go to the person who is the property owner, and people coming into the County do not pay it; the County has tourists; gas tax is spread over the users; and if you drive a car and fill up in the County, you will be paying for the roads. He noted if you are a retiree who only goes out once a week, it will not impact you as much; and there is a lot to be said for the gas tax. Commissioner O'Brien stated the federal government does it, so, why should not the County do it. Commissioner Cook stated that is part of the issue; there is federal, state and local tax; and it is a huge amount of tax on gasoline. Commissioner O'Brien stated the homeowner has been slapped in the face for years; eventually the homeowner's back is going to be broke; people on fixed incomes have their taxes going up; but if there is a users fee called the gas tax, if you want a road or bridge or something like that, that can be used. Commissioner Cook stated the gas tax is regressive in some respects also. Chairman Higgs noted she does not know that the Board needs to argue the merits of the gas tax now. Commissioner Scarborough stated he just threw it out because there was discussion about funding things. Commissioner Ellis stated the gas tax could take the place of other tax. Commissioner Cook stated that would be the only way he could support it would be if it took the place of other taxes because it would be too easy to just impose another tax.

Chairman Higgs stated that is true; but the MPO staff is preparing to show the number of roads that will be over capacity in the year 2020; and the Board is going to have to look at that in a realistic manner, have a plan, and say how it is going to pay for it.

Commissioner Ellis stated if the Board could go back to 1986 when the gas tax started and was bonded, the first thing the Board would do is say do not build a single thing until you buy all the right-of-way, and then build as you get the money. He stated the first thing is the right-of-way; and the Board has seen from experience that is the biggest factor. Mr. Jenkins advised a fairly firm master plan of where the roads are going to go in the County would be needed to know where to acquire right-of-way. Commissioner Cook stated that is all necessary. Commissioner Scarborough stated the Board discussed it; the municipalities were asking for it; the MPO was asking for it; and it died at the Board level.

Chairman Higgs stated the Board did not vote; but the issue is going to be painful in terms of looking at the year 2020 and saying where the money is going to come from.

Commissioner Cook stated the Board needs to set priorities; if there is a priority in roads, it means less will be spent on something else; and the Board cannot be Santa Claus to everybody.

Commissioner O'Brien stated the Board has to develop its taxation philosophy; and there are five different ideas on that. He stated Nelson Rockefeller in the State of New York said you pay as you go or you do not go; and New York State was never broke until the next governor came in and changed that philosophy. He stated then it went bankrupt in seven years; and now people cannot afford to live there. He stated the gas tax as a users tax is an idea, to pay as you go or do not go; but bonding is another example of throwing the debt at someone else in the future.

Commissioner Ellis stated bonding prohibits you from making changes in the direction you are going; and what looked like a good decision ten years ago, may not look so good later, but you are tied up.

Chairman Higgs stated in order to not bond, the Board has to make a decision now, and begin to collect revenues.

Commissioner O'Brien stated if the Board continues to bond, that is saying go out and borrow some money; but you can only go so far with that; and the County has gone about as far as it should. He stated now is the time to start building a sinking fund, and putting together a plan for the future of the economy for the next 50 years. Chairman Higgs stated the Board can go 20 years. Commissioner O'Brien stated the Board can put a plan together now that is financially viable and will not break the backs of the people living here now or in the future.

Commissioner Ellis stated Commissioner Scarborough is right about the gas tax; and all road and bridge should be paid for from gas tax.

Commissioner Cook stated it is regressive to someone making minimum wage; but he would be in favor of looking at that. He stated he does agree with the pay as you go philosophy; but the Board needs to look at spending in general as part of that entire picture and determine what its legitimate responsibilities are. Chairman Higgs stated that is something no one else can do. Commissioner Cook stated the Board has to take a hard look, and it might be painful.

Commissioner O'Brien stated it may be very painful; but as the tax burden is shifted into other areas, it is not going to be that severe. He stated the Board will define the direction it wants to take; and it will have its marching orders.

Commissioner Cook stated rather than raising one tax or fee, he would like the Board to look at the entire picture.

Commissioner Scarborough inquired how much would the gas tax generate; with Mr. Jenkins responding the ninth cent which Commissioner Ellis was talking about would raise $2 million a year. Mr. Jenkins advised what is good about that is the County is not required statutorily to split it with the cities. Commissioner Scarborough stated there are people who just come in for the winter months; they are not property owners; and if the Board looks at a year's scenario, it could reduce property taxes by $1.5 million because the other half is free money. He stated it would be the same $1.5 million coming in from gas tax with the other half picked up from the tourists.

Chairman Higgs stated nobody's going to buy into that today; but what she hears is the Board is willing to look at 20 years down the road and plan for it.

Commissioner Ellis stated the Board also needs to take a realistic look at where it is putting some of the gas tax money, and ask what did it cost to make this system operate. He stated in terms of the fixed route bus system, the Board needs to look at what does it cost to make this system viable, and ask whether we will ever reach that. Commissioner O'Brien stated there are busses running around with only two people in them .

Commissioner Scarborough stated at the national level you have public housing and supporting developers; and they must have read Commissioner Ellis's remarks because they want to give it to the end user and let him purchase his own subsidized housing. Commissioner Cook advised Jack Kemp brought that up.

Chairman Higgs stated not only does the Board have the ninth cent to look at after 2001, but the five cents it has ends; so, there is the ninth cent, an additional five cents plus the renewal of the current five cents. Commissioner Ellis stated he does not want to touch 2001. Chairman Higgs requested the Board keep an open mind. She stated the Board is going to look at 2020 and what is going to be there; and even though she does not want all these roads, if they are going to have to go there, she wants them to be paid for. Commissioner Scarborough inquired if a bridge can be built; with Chairman Higgs responding the County does not have enough money. Chairman Higgs stated she does not know what the Board has to touch; but if it is going to look at the year 2020 and say based on our land use, so many people will be here, the Board is going to have to either make a decision to pay for it or make the decisions with the land use.

Commissioner Ellis stated there are other options; the County has the ability of saying what it can afford to pay for right-of-way on a road, and close with everybody at the same time; and if everyone cannot handle that, then the County just will not do the road. Chairman Higgs stated the County is far past that on Malabar Road. Commissioner Ellis stated the County could have done that on Grissom Road.

The meeting recessed at 3:10 p.m. and reconvened at 3:20 p.m.

Chairman Higgs stated the Board is going to use the workshops for its evolving into a direction, and use that to schedule those items that are the bigger picture sort of issues. She stated the Board did not mention the additional sales tax; but that is an option to the County. Commissioner Ellis noted that is a referendum. Chairman Higgs stated that is correct; but it is an option which also generated a large amount. Commissioner Ellis stated the Board looked at that for the courthouse, but it was too late. Mr. Jenkins noted the Board will have its jail and crime workshop before the budget workshop.

Commissioner O'Brien stated that is where the one-cent is going to pop up again; and he did a survey and found the public is more than willing to pay one more cent in sales tax for a jail only. He stated the last time this was tried, police radios, etc. were added; but if it goes to a referendum it should say are you willing to spend one cent of extra sales tax for two or three years to pay for a jail. He noted it would be beautiful next to the new Justice Center, instead of transporting prisoners back and forth.

Commissioner Ellis stated there is a misconception in the community about who is held in the County Jail; there are misdemeanor offers and people waiting trial or transit; and there are not really convicted murderers being released early from the County Jail.

Chairman Higgs stated there are significant number of people who are repeat offenders who are awaiting trial; they have been through the process before; and because of the size and the way it is managed, they are out on the street. Commissioner Ellis stated that is what the Board has to find out because one of the complaints is there are too many signature bonds. Commissioner Cook stated the majority of people in County Jail are awaiting trial.

Assistant County Manager for Criminal Justice Yvette Parker stated 85% of the offenders have been in jail at least three times before. Commissioner Cook inquired if they are awaiting trial; with Ms. Parker responding 75% to 80% of the people are awaiting trial. Commissioner Cook stated they would still have the presumption of innocence; with Ms. Parker responding absolutely. Chairman Higgs noted they have been there before; with Ms. Parker agreeing. Commissioner Cook stated it does not mean they are guilty of the current crime just because they committed another crime. Ms. Parker stated the offenders that are currently in facilities have been reviewed several times by processes set up by the criminal justice system; there is a 1.6 to 1.8 rate of incarceration per 1,000 residents of Brevard County; the State average is 2.6; and the jail population is managed. She stated the Board is about to be asked in February, 1995 to consider an expansion; and the majority of the people there are going to go on to the State prison system or will be placed on some kind of community supervision. Chairman Higgs stated some of those people are being released; they have been there before; and if there was a bigger facility, they could or should be held additional time. Ms. Parker stated historically in the last ten years, the Courthouse has not utilized the jail after sentencing; it is starting to change because of the guidelines; and the courts are going to have no option but to send them to the County Jail, therefore creating a population the County never had before at the County Jail.

Commissioner Ellis inquired did not the County fund the expansion; with Ms. Parker responding that was the minimum security facility of 60 beds which will be used for County Court Misdemeanor people only. She stated there will be sentencing guidelines for convicted felons which the County has not utilized the facility for at all. Commissioner Ellis inquired if the convicted felons will now be sentenced to County Jail; with Ms. Parker responding yes, under the new guidelines. Commissioner Ellis inquired for what term; with Ms. Parker responding a year or two years. Commissioner Ellis noted that is a change in the sentencing because prior to that, the County Jail was only one year or less. Ms. Parker stated that is correct; it was for County Court people; and the felony sentence could be given as a condition of probation, but the Judges have been cooperative in either putting them on community control or in the State prison system. She stated there has been an increase in the rate of convicted felons going to County Jail. Commissioner Ellis stated they did not formerly go there; and inquired if this has been changed by the Legislature; with Ms. Parker responding affirmatively. Commissioner Ellis inquired if the Legislature should fund the jail; with Ms. Parker responding the Legislature should fund the State prison system, then the counties would not have to fund so much of the county jail system.

Chairman Higgs noted the Legislature has not budgeted. Mr. Jenkins stated the State makes the rules. Commissioner Cook stated it is an unfunded mandate. Commissioner Ellis stated he is quite serious about this. Commissioner O'Brien stated as the population increases, more schools are needed; and we have to expect the prison population to grow proportionately. He stated the County keeps building new schools, but it does not also build new jail; so the County is part of the problem. Commissioner Ellis inquired who do you actually hold in County jail; and stated there is a big difference between who you actually hold in County Jail and who you hold in the State prison system.

Chairman Higgs stated they will hold whoever is sentenced there. Ms. Parker stated the actual premise of the County Jail was fought by Brevard County and the States Attorney's Office, not necessarily for the general population issues, but the diminishing of the punishment. She stated you take multi-drug offenders, multi-burglars, and what you are doing is saying you do not deserve prison time, so, you can go to jail or be put back in the community; and that is why the County fought it because there is a lessening of those guidelines and punishment. She stated the County Jail population issue is a secondary issue. Mr. Jenkins stated the State is using the County as an outlet to take its overflow prisoners; the State is supposed to fund the State prison system; and instead of the State funding the prison system, it is telling the counties to hold the prisoners a couple of years, which they have never had to do. He stated when staff comes to the Board at the workshop, it will be talking about a maximum security facility and a work farm; the Sheriff has been an advocate of a work farm; the Judges are pushing work release and want the Board to discuss that; and so all three of those corrections items will be discussed.

Chairman Higgs stated jail and crime is one of the big issues; and inquired if the Board wants to see Mr. Jenkins' agenda before the meeting, or does the Board wish to have the Chairman look at it. Commissioner Ellis stated he definitely would like to see whatever Mr. Jenkins has set. Chairman Higgs inquired does the Board want to determine the agenda. She stated in the past the Board has gone to a workshop and been presented with an agenda; and inquired does the Board want to see the agenda, does it want the Chairman to look at the agenda, or does it want the County Manager to do it. Commissioner Scarborough stated the agenda should be sent out in case there is something to be added. Commissioner Ellis stated when the Board comes to a workshop, and there are four items listed on the agenda, there is nothing that stops the Board from discussing five or six items. Chairman Higgs acknowledged that is true; and inquired if the Board wants control of the agenda. Commissioner Scarborough stated if there is a Commissioner with a good idea, that should be communicated through the County Manager; and the County Manager will be prepared to discuss it as opposed to the Commissioner walking in and saying he would like to discuss an issue, and staff advising it will have to come back again later. He stated the County Manager can get the Commissioners' input into the thought process. Chairman Higgs stated at the point the Board sees Mr. Jenkins' agenda, it can contact Mr. Jenkins with additional information and he can add that to the agenda.

Commissioner Ellis stated he has a letter to Mr. Knox right now to see about juvenile detention facilities, and what the County can do because it is jurisdictional between the County and the State. Chairman Higgs stated it would be Commissioner Ellis' responsibility to take that part of the agenda, and present that to the Board. Commissioner Ellis responded not at all; and advised he would get Mr. Knox's reply and send that to Mr. Jenkins, and it would be another item to discuss.

Commissioner Scarborough stated all the Commissioners would know that they would be coming to talk about this as well because they would have an amended agenda showing the item; it would not be necessary to know it was a certain Commissioner's idea; and it would just be something that was scheduled on the agenda.

Commissioner O'Brien inquired if the County can build golf courses and baseball stadiums, why can it not build a jail and charge high rent to anyone who wants to put someone there. Chairman Higgs inquired if Commissioner O'Brien means another County, selling out the building. Commissioner O'Brien stated if the County can rent out half the jail, that might pay for the whole jail because the County will charge more than it really costs. Commissioner Ellis stated it would be necessary to find out if there are a surplus of County prisoners in surrounding counties; a County in Texas defaulted on a Certificate of Participation because it got talked into building a big jail to hold prisoners from all over the state, and it failed. Commissioner O'Brien stated Miami has a lot of prisoners it would like to send up. Mr. Jenkins stated they have the same problem Brevard County has; there is excess space in Lake County right now; but it is the cost of getting the people back and forth. He stated local prisoners and local lawyers have to have accessibility to each other; and he is not sure there are many counties that might want to use the jail here; but the Board could look at the state and/or federal government. Commissioner O'Brien stated the federal government would; with Commissioner Ellis advising then the County would have to build to federal standards. Commissioner Cook stated federal prisoners were held in the County jail a while back; and the question was whether the County could recover any of the costs associated with that. Mr. Jenkins stated there was a problem at the Space Center; and the County held some. Commissioner Cook stated the County Jail held federal prisoners who were being transferred; at one time there was discussion whether the County could recover any costs from the federal government for handling people who were actually federal prisoners; and that is something the Board can discuss, noting he does not know whether that is legitimate or not.

Commissioner Ellis stated we used to bail people out of Sarno; now they come to Viera, and then go to Sharpes; so there is another person adding to the prison overcrowding problem.

Chairman Higgs inquired are they part of the census; with Ms. Parker responding yes, once arrested and booked into the County facility. She stated the courts consider if 30 people were brought up, and they get out within 24 hours, they are gone.

Commissioner Ellis stated but if they were never taken there, they would never be part of the census. Mr. Parker advising the are once they are arrested and booked in, whether it be here or Sarno. Commissioner Ellis inquired how can they be part of the jail census in Sharpes if they are booked and bonded out of Viera. Ms. Parker responded it is entered into the computer and becomes part of the population. Mr. Jenkins inquired why it has to be; with Ms. Parker responding it does not have to be.

Chairman Higgs stated at the workshop, the Board will have the staff's agenda; and as desired, the Commissioners will add to that. She stated in the next two months, there are significant issues in terms of solid waste, economic development, goals, and jail which are big picture issues; and that is probably as much as the Board can bite off in two months. She stated at the February 14, 1995 night meeting, she is going to put on an agenda the scrub habitat and development plan discussion. She stated she was appointed almost two years ago to represent the Board; the group has worked on the plan; it is still a long way from completion, with significant issues yet to be determined; and on February 14, she will report on where the group is. She noted she does not know that she will have definitive areas in terms of the options, but she will get direction from the Board where it wants to go. She reiterated she represents the Board; the six people on the Steering Committee each represent a constituency; and it takes the unanimous consent of the group for there to be a plan.

Commissioner O'Brien stated Commissioners Ellis and Cook have brought up the issue of over regulation in the County; and he would like to hear them out on it. Commissioner Ellis stated he would like to have a workshop on the Comprehensive Plan. Commissioner Cook stated he supports that fully because that has ruled a lot of what is happening in the County. Commissioner Ellis stated he had crazy problems even down to trying to do the sidewalks; there are a lot of "shalls" where there should be "shoulds"; and in North Merritt Island, they pulled out a perfectly good three-foot sidewalk to put in one that was four feet. Commissioner Cook stated over regulation is a serious problem; and it is affecting the average homeowner. Commissioner O'Brien stated it is affecting everybody; it has gotten to the point in regulation where if you want to put an antenna on your roof, you need a permit; then you need a permit to put a wire on it and turn on the television; and it is outrageous. He stated the Board can look at the Comprehensive Plan as a beginning; it is a good beginning because it starts looking at the future of the County; and during the workshop, the Board can start looking at what regulations are there and how they tie together. He noted the Board may have to ask staff to help out on that and where some regulations can be eliminated. Commissioner Cook stated that should be the goal. Commissioner O'Brien suggested the Board could change the regulations to only affect commercial, but not the single family homeowners.

Chairman Higgs stated when is the Evaluation Appraisal on the Comprehensive Plan coming to the Board; with Planning and Zoning Director Peggy Busacca responding in 1997.

Mr. Jenkins stated there are two things that are happening currently; one is staff already discussed internally going back through the Comprehensive Plan to simplify it; and if the Board holds a workshop, that would be helpful, because staff can get direction in terms of policy and direction. He stated the second thing is Land Development Director John Sternagel will begin a process to streamline, consolidate, merge and improve the overall land development codes; and there are a bunch of them. Chairman Higgs inquired if Mr. Sternagel is bringing that to the Board in the Site Plan Ordinance; with Assistant County Manager for Community Development Dean Sprague responding the Site Plan and Subdivision Ordinance is scheduled to come to the Board on March 12 and 26, 1995. Mr. Jenkins inquired if that is the band-aid or the overhaul; with Mr. Sprague responding it is the overhaul with a series of options. Chairman Higgs stated the Board will start with that; and inquired if the Board wants a workshop to go through the Comprehensive Plan. Commissioner Ellis stated that is what he would like to do; one of the driving factors of some of the cost in the County has been the Comprehensive Plan rules; it is something as simple as every time you do the roads, you have to put a sidewalk down both sides, whether you use it or not; a lot of things are driven by the Comprehensive Plan; and it is not a plan anymore. He stated a plan is a guide and a blueprint; but the Comprehensive Plan is something the County has to do; and it is "shalls" instead of "shoulds."

Chairman Higgs stated the Board pretty much has through April, 1995 book up; the 2020 Road Plan will be a significant factor in early summer; and then the Board will go into the budget. Mr. Jenkins stated the transportation workshop is scheduled for April 12, 1995 which is the wrong time; and that is open. Chairman Higgs inquired if the Board wants to discuss the Comprehensive Plan; with Commissioner Cook responding yes. Commissioner Ellis stated that will give everyone plenty of time. Commissioner O'Brien stated that is the best time to start; if the Board looks at the Comprehensive Plan comprehensively, it can get to the regulations as well and start trying to figure out some of this; the Board can start looking at the future growth of the County; and he would be interested in talking about the transportation plan and everything else. He stated the Board can start setting the goals and objectives of growth.

Commissioner Ellis stated he does not like to use the stick as much as the carrot; and inquired why someone building in an existing area should pay an impact fee. He stated the fees on expanding the Titusville Library are $29,000; and inquired what is the impact. Commissioner Scarborough advised Titusville is talking about doing away with all impact fees; but if you go that far people will be saying why should they subsidize the person coming down from Illinois if he is impacting the infrastructure. He stated there are other elements such as industrial and manufacturing which are substantially higher in Brevard County than in Volusia, Seminole, Orange or Osceola Counties; and inquired why does the County try to give the message it does not want any manufacturing jobs here. He stated that is something that needs to be fine tuned; but you can go to the extreme if Titusville abolishes all impact fees. Chairman Higgs inquired who is going to pay. Commissioner Scarborough stated the trouble is you pick it up with general revenue; general revenue keeps the system operating; impact fees have never been at 100% of impact because of fear of lawsuits; so it is subsidizing the capital plant that has to operate. Commissioner Cook stated it does in a way for normal business people. Commissioner Scarborough stated on the other hand you have the homeowner; and the question is how big is Florida going to get. He stated there was something on television that said 66% of the people in the country wished they were living in Florida; and if everything in the world negative were done, it could not kill growth. Commissioner O'Brien stated there are lots of problems. Commissioner Scarborough stated people want to move to Florida regardless of the problems. Commissioner Ellis stated not all growth has an impact; with Commissioner O'Brien agreeing. Commissioner Ellis stated an example is the Titusville Library. Commissioner Scarborough stated the County should give positive signals to the positive growth; and inquired why the City of Titusville would want an impact fee when you are putting in a library, and is the City trying to say it does not want a library. He stated there is a place for impact fees; but there is a place to say the County is going to go out of its way to give positive signals because it wants to get the best.

Chairman Higgs stated you cannot separate that discussion of impact fees from the previous discussion about something like a gas tax; if there is a way to fund the infrastructure and you are going to have growth, and there is a way that is more fair than impact fees, that is okay; but what the political process has not done is bite the bullet and make the decision to get to the year 2020 with adequate roads. She stated the County has band-aided it along with what is the least painful way to fund it. Commissioner Ellis stated there is a positive way to direct business and growth toward where there is already infrastructure. He stated in Titusville, Highway 50 is a wide road; there are stretches on Highway 50 where he would rather have a business build than out in the boondocks somewhere; and he would rather have someone build on Highway 50 rather than S.R. 46. Commissioner Scarborough stated it depends on what and why; there are certain things that you will have redundancy in the impact; and if you have manufacturing jobs come, a couple of things happen. He stated the plant is built, and the County receives ad valorem taxes; on multi-family, the County loses money, on single family, it just breaks even; but on industrial, it makes a killing. Chairman Higgs stated maybe not now though. Commissioner Scarborough stated the McDonnell Douglas plant is totally secured; it does not need fire or police; and it is totally self-contained; but there are a lot of ad valorem taxes. He stated the facility brought employees here; each of the employees buys a home, with impact fees paid on all the homes; and the County is able to get the impact fees elsewhere from that impact; but the County is able to say to someone coming in and building a plant, that the County wants it because it is going to get the ad valorem taxes.

Commissioner O'Brien advised he was going to build a 35,000-square foot facility in Cape Canaveral; the reason he backed out was because the impact fees were $37,000; and he did not do it.

Commissioner Scarborough stated if someone reads that there is not going to be an impact fee on that type of activity, it will think the County really wants them.

Chairman Higgs stated she wanted to buy an office building and add four parking spaces; the cost to add the four spaces, when you got through with everything was going to be $20,000; and you cannot do it.

Commissioner Scarborough suggested exempting commercial and industrial manufacturing activities. Chairman Higgs stated it should be in an existing area. Discussion ensued on the proposal. Chairman stated this discussion should be part of the Comprehensive Plan issues; with Commissioners Ellis and Cook agreeing. Commissioner Scarborough stated it may be more impact fees and funding. Chairman Higgs inquired if the Board is going to deal with impact fees; and does it have something coming back to it on the impact fee study; with Mr. Sprague responding it is next fall. Chairman Higgs inquired if there is a consultant on board to study impact fees; with Mr. Sprague responding fees are being negotiated. Chairman Higgs inquired if the Board wants to talk about impact fees or is that part of it.

Commissioner Scarborough stated he has a problem with the impact fee; he always thought you could not take impact fees and move them out of one area to another or use them to cure past sins; impact fees were supposed to handle future problems; these were the issues; and certain limits could never be exceeded. He stated he never thought the Board could not abolish impact fees in certain areas such as manufacturing, industrial and commercial; the Board could wipe them out; and he can show numbers that the ad valorem tax is such a positive flow on those as compared to service levels for police, fire, etc.

Commissioner O'Brien inquired if that is true, why during the growth boom of the 1980's did taxes quintuple. Commissioner Scarborough stated he is talking about exempting out an area which is a small user; he does not know how much industrial occurred in Commissioner O'Brien's area; but until Lockheed came out of the Space Center, there was nothing on the mainland in North Brevard. He stated Lockheed moved over; then Grumman moved in; but essentially what they had was everything on tax exempt property on a federal enclave; so they were taxed nothing. He stated North Brevard was a bedroom community for a tax exempt environment; and getting companies on the mainland increased revenues substantially. Commissioner Ellis stated Palm Bay has the same problem; it does not have any kind of business or industrial tax base; it has single family homes with $25,000 exemptions; but businesses not only do not ask for police or fire, but they do not ask for parks, schools or crossing guards. Commissioner Scarborough stated as they generate the jobs, those people are paying the impact fee in the secondary.

Chairman Higgs inquired where the Board wants to go. Commissioner Scarborough responded he would like to abolish impact fees in certain areas and have a workshop on itemized abolishment of impact fees in certain areas. Commissioner Ellis inquired if the Board can talk about that at the economic development workshop. Chairman Higgs inquired if the Board can do that, noting it is not far away. Commissioner Cook inquired why not; with Commissioner O'Brien advising it will just be an open workshop discussion. Chairman Higgs inquired if staff can be ready to talk with the Board at that time; with Mr. Jenkins responding he anticipated impact fees would be an item the Board would discuss at that workshop.

Commissioner O'Brien stated he has to change the name of the person he appointed to committees at the last meeting. Chairman Higgs advised Commissioner O'Brien cannot do that at this workshop, but can do it at the regular meeting on Tuesday.

Chairman Higgs inquired if the emergency and consolidation issues are going to come back. Commissioner Ellis stated he is trying to get something from the cities on that to see if there is an interest; and he is only looking at Melbourne and Palm Bay right now; but the Board needs to do something. Chairman Higgs noted Indialantic is in Commissioner Ellis's district as well. Commissioner Ellis stated from Pineda Causeway down what you have is fire station after fire station. Chairman Higgs stated from the Pineda Causeway down there are multiple jurisdictions. Commissioner Ellis stated what the Board needs to do is have this organized; if there is a fire station, whether County or city, it should have an effective radius of operations; and they should start organizing along those lines. He stated there is a County fire station by the Holiday Inn; but there is a lot of Melbourne surrounding the County; and it may be possible to make a trade, turning that station over to the City of Melbourne to service that side of the river, and in return the County may put a four-man station on Wickham to service part of the Melbourne area that is growing. Chairman Higgs stated she does not know if that will work or not; but it is an important option to look at because from what she has seen in terms of the 2020 Plan for Emergency Services, the County is going to have to do a lot of things. She stated the south end of the County is going to need an immense amount. Commissioner Ellis stated it cannot run out of the West Melbourne station forever; and right now it runs all the way down to Lake Washington. Chairman Higgs stated Barefoot Bay/ Micco covers that area. Commissioner O'Brien stated there is a severe problem at the south end of Cocoa Beach where there is no coverage at all. Commissioner Ellis stated that needs to be passed off. Commissioner O'Brien stated today he sent a letter off to the City of Cocoa Beach requesting it take a look at the County using whatever funds are generated there; the County will pay the City of Cocoa Beach and get fire and police protection; and they would be taxed like everybody else. Commissioner Ellis stated it should not matter who provides the service; all that matters is the people get the service; and whether it is provided by the County or the municipality should be indifferent. Commissioner O'Brien stated if they met as public safety, the Board should be indifferent as to how it is done as long as it is done; and this is what they are trying to accomplish. Chairman Higgs inquired if that issue can be researched and come back with information. Commissioner Ellis stated he would like to see how things go with Melbourne/Palm Bay to see if there is interest; he has talked with different members of different fire departments in the field; and most of them are fairly supportive because they also see the waste. He stated the thing that concerns him is the County is coming up against its Fire MSTU millage cap; so the County is going to have to learn to do things. Chairman Higgs inquired is it going to come back to the Board. Commissioner Ellis stated the public safety workshop is coming up; he hopes to have something back from the cities by then; and there is no reason not to build a joint fire station with two bays, one for the County and one for the city. Chairman Higgs stated there has to be a better way; with Commissioner Ellis responding definitely.

Commissioner O'Brien inquired if anyone has any furniture to donate to his office. Commissioner Cook suggested Commissioner O'Brien contact Central Services Supervisor Roger Donnelly. Commissioner O'Brien advised he already took Roger's tour. Discussion ensued on the furniture problem.

Commissioner Cook stated he has been through the appointees to the EELs Committee; and inquired if those are two-year appointments. He inquired if new appointments are needed. Commissioner Ellis stated he does not know how some committees work like the Beach Erosion Committee. Assistant County Manager for Environmental Services Stephen Peffer responded they were recently reappointed for another two years, probably at the last meeting of the previous Board. Commissioner Ellis stated essentially you just have a list of people that are on the Committee, and the Board reappoints. Commissioner Cook stated he is sure the Committee is doing a great job; but he was thinking about bringing other people in. He stated the appointees have been on the Committee since 1990; and he did not realize they were lifetime appointments. He inquired why not give some others, like Leroy Wright, who is a big environmentalist, a chance to serve. Commissioner O'Brien inquired can the Commissioners ask for resignations; with Mr. Jenkins responding he thinks they could; and inquired what establishes the two-year term. Mr. Peffer advised that was Board policy; there were a number of qualifications; the way it was done originally was to get a pool of 20 to 21 people who were qualified according to the criteria; and the Board selected from that group, and by consensus, appointed seven members. Commissioner O'Brien inquired can a motion be made that says anybody who is appointed to a committee must submit his or her signed resignation undated. Commissioner Ellis noted the EELs Committee is not done by individual appointments. Chairman Higgs stated it was appointed by the entire Board. Commissioner Cook stated there are a lot of great people out there who would be super on that Committee. Chairman Higgs noted the Board approved the whole list. Commissioner Ellis stated it is true the Board approved the whole list; and if he had a person he wanted to put on that Committee, he does not think it would have been proper for him to show up at the meeting and suggest throwing a person off the Committee, because that is the only way to add one is to throw one off. Commissioner Cook inquired if the Board can look at that. Chairman Higgs requested Mr. Jenkins provide the Board with a summary of how the EELs Committee got there, the term and what the opportunity is for all committees. Commissioner O'Brien stated the information should be for all committees. Commissioner Ellis stated if the appointment is made by a Commissioner, the new Commissioner can make a change; but for things like the Beach Erosion Committee, they cannot. Chairman Higgs inquired if the Commissioners want to know all the committees and advisory boards, what their make-up is and the terms of appointment. Commissioner Cook stated he has that. Chairman Higgs inquired if information is needed specifically on EELs; with Commissioner Cook responding yes. Commissioner Ellis reiterated the EELs Committee is done by group appointments rather than individual appointments. Mr. Jenkins stated what Commissioner Ellis is saying is this is one of those committees where the entire Board votes on the entire package of candidates versus individual Commissioners selecting their own appointments.

Commissioner Scarborough stated the Jess Parrish Hospital Board recommended somebody for appointment; the Titusville City Council did not accept that appointment, and requested three names for review; he asked if this was going to be the policy; and that is something the Board is going to need to look at. He stated apparently the City did not like the nominee and desires a listing.

Commissioner Cook stated it is good to give new people an opportunity to serve. Commissioner O'Brien stated some of them have special interests; and it is time to have some removed because of special interest. Commissioner Ellis stated he does not know in that case. Commissioner O'Brien stated it becomes transparent after a while. Commissioner Cook stated the more people who participate, the better it is.

Commissioner O'Brien stated he had an idea, and discussed it with Mr. Jenkins; when the Commissioners get their agenda packages, they are thick; and the entire thing could be put on a disk. He stated it would save the County having to make fifteen copies of the documents for the five Commissioners and everyone; and if someone wanted to see a print-out of a document, all they would have to do is go to their computer and printer, and print it.

Commissioner Ellis stated the problem is if the Commissioners come to a meeting and have a question on a certain page of a certain item, then they will not have a hard copy. Chairman Higgs stated all of the Commissioners could be given laptop computers. Commissioner O'Brien stated they could do that; but if there is a computer and printer off to the side, then five copies could be made.

Commissioner Scarborough stated he has people who come by and read the agenda in the office; he has one computer; and that would mean they would tie up the computer while going through the agenda. Commissioner O'Brien suggested copying the disk and giving it to them.

Chairman Higgs stated she takes her agenda home; and she would want the County to provide her with a laptop computer she could transport. She stated she does not object; but she transports her agenda.

Commissioner Scarborough stated the thing is he gets the agenda, marks it up, and takes it home; he then brings it back and gets additional staff items; and it may work; but he would have to rethink how his office operates.

Commissioner Ellis stated he marks his agenda; and he goes through it twice.

Chairman Higgs stated she likes the hard copy.

Commissioner O'Brien stated the idea is if the County spent $10,000 on five lap top computers and joined the 21st century, it would probably save that much money in six months in paperwork alone. Chairman Higgs inquired how much the County spends.

Commissioner Ellis stated when you get to the meeting and do not have a hard copy, there will be problems. Commissioner O'Brien stated the Commissioners can bring anything they want a hard copy of. Commissioner Ellis stated he can bring what he wants, but how about what Commissioner O'Brien wants to discuss. Commissioner Cook noted something may generate from the meeting. Commissioner O'Brien stated if it is going to be pulled, and the Commissioners know about it, they can run off copies of that single document. Commissioner Ellis stated he marks his agendas to pieces. Mr. Jenkins stated another problem may be the attachments; there would be a lot of data entry; and inquired how would they get all those attachments on the disk; with Chairman Higgs responding scan them. Chairman Higgs stated the Board is not ready to buy, but it will consider it. Commissioner O'Brien stated he is just trying to cut down on the paper; the volume is unbelievable; and he gets stacks twice a month. Commissioner Ellis stated Commissioner O'Brien will be surprised how many times he goes back to see an old agenda item to see what he wrote on it. Chairman Higgs stated you would have your disk but not your notes. Commissioner Ellis stated you would have to have the disk at the meeting. Commissioner Scarborough stated he tracks some things for several years; he carries them forward in excess files with the newspaper clippings and different things people give him; and he is able to put them all together as a file; so, he will still have materials.

Commissioner O'Brien stated you can transfer the paperwork on the disk to disk on file; and if you want to keep the maps or photographs, you can have a file folder. He stated legally all the paperwork should be kept in one place at Viera; but what the County has instead is copies in all the offices; and it is repeated five, six or seven times. Commissioner Scarborough stated the information is in the Districts for the constituents; and part of it is the dissemination of information. Commissioner O'Brien stated if they want information, the Commissioners have computers; they can call Viera via modem; and there it is. He stated it saves paper, time, and effort; and if someone wants to read the information, they can bring it up on the computer screen.

Chairman Higgs stated Mr. Jenkins can provide the information from Information Systems on the feasibility and method by which a disk driven system could be adopted; and the Board will look at it; but she sees concerns.

Commissioner O'Brien stated the Commissioners already have TV screen next to them which may work as computer screens.

Commissioner Ellis stated his only concern is by the time his agenda gets back to his office after the meeting, it is completely marked up and highlighted; and six months or a year later he may go back to that item to see what notes he has written on it.

Chairman Higgs reiterated she is just asking for information, and the Board will look at it.

Commissioner Scarborough stated he has his assistants go through the agenda; then they have a staff meeting to discuss the issues; they decide what old items have to be pulled from the files to supplement; they send out staff letters and schedule meetings; and then they update on Monday afternoon, bringing it all together. He stated he does not know if a disk is gong to do it. Commissioner Cook stated this would be an option. Commissioner Scarborough stated they use the hard material. Commissioner Cook stated he marks up his agenda, but he is willing to look at the option.

Chairman Higgs reiterated the Board is just going to see the cost and feasibility. Commissioner Scarborough stated he will have to talk to his staff.

Commissioner O'Brien stated he hopes the Board clarified that it wants input from Mr. Jenkins. He stated he has heard in the past that staff members are often afraid to speak up because they will get bitten; but this is a new fresh Board with honesty and a high degree of integrity; and it expects the County Manager and staff to be the same. He stated if the information is bad, staff should bring it to the Board, and let it know the truth; it should let the Board know everything it has to know; and he told staff to come to his office and speak up. He stated the employees are paid to think and be creative; and he is hoping Mr. Jenkins and the Board can direct staff to be creative, to think and help get through a lot of this stuff, and find a way to reduce the paperwork pile.

Commissioner Scarborough stated one thing Commissioner Ellis has brought up again and again is knowing negative moves; he does not care if things are going well; but at the end of the week, maybe staff could send a memo of everything of concern.

Commissioner Ellis stated he found out second-hand that EG&G was moving out of Merritt Island. Commissioner Cook stated there has been a mentality to protect the County; but if something is negative, he wants to hear it, get it out in the open, and address it. He stated that is better than waiting for it to become a crisis; and the more information the Board has, the better decisions it will make.

Commissioner Scarborough stated everyone realizes things do not run smoothly; there are problems; and the only thing is whether the Board is going to have surprises or whether it is going to know there is a problem and handle it.

Commissioner O'Brien stated the hiring freeze is killing him.

Chairman Higgs stated there was a memo that came through from the Chambers; they are involved in a divisioning process; and she would be willing to go to that. She stated a staff person was sent to the first meeting to observe; but the Board should have someone on that. Commissioner Ellis stated the first meeting was on a Board meeting day. Chairman Higgs stated the Council of Chambers is working together to develop a vision for Brevard County; and someone from the Board should go. Commissioner Scarborough inquired if Chairman Higgs wishes to go; with Chairman Higgs responding not particularly, but she is willing to go. Commissioner Ellis suggested the EDC be involved. Chairman Higgs stated she thinks the EDC is going to be there too; she requested a list of who will be involved; and she will be happy to bring the issue back at the next Board meeting. She stated it is going to be a balance of homeowners, business people, local government, the newspaper, and hospitals, trying to develop a vision; and if they are going to be looking at the big picture to the year 2020, the Board should be involved in that process. Mr. Jenkins inquired who will be paying for this vision. Chairman Higgs stated the Chamber is paying; it is soliciting contributions; and whether the Board wishes to contribute would be a second issue. She stated the Board needs all the particulars on what is going on. Commissioner Scarborough stated it would be appropriate for Chairman Higgs to attend. Chairman Higgs stated she will go if the Board desires; with Commissioner Cook advising that is fine.

Chairman Higgs stated it was a productive discussion. Commissioner Cook concurred. Commissioner Ellis stated he does not think the Board has ever had a non-productive workshop because even if there is arguing, the points get out; with Commissioner O'Brien agreeing. Commissioner Ellis stated there were some real knock-down drag-outs on the courthouse; but at least the points got out rather than being swept under the rug. Chairman Higgs stated the Board clarified its position on staff and the Board's positions; it clarified that it wants to have a long range big picture approach; it will use the workshops as the method to deal with those big issues; and if the Board keeps that in mind, it will get someplace important. Commissioner Ellis stated the Board has to resign itself that the regular Board meetings are just a lot of reaction. Chairman Higgs stated that is only a part of the job; with Commissioner Ellis agreeing. Chairman Higgs stated she does not think the Board has ever said that; she has never heard it; that is good; and the Board will have the same open discussion in February. Commissioner Cook stated this is productive.

Commissioner O'Brien inquired if you cannot smoke in the buildings, should the Board also ban perfumes and deodorants and things like that. Discussion ensued on the issue.

Upon motion and vote, the meeting adjourned at 4:20 p.m.

NANCY N. HIGGS
BOARD OF COUNTY COMMISSIONERS
BREVARD COUNTY, FLORIDA

ATTEST:
SANDY CRAWFORD, CLERK
( S E A L )